Author Topic: He's one step closer  (Read 1072 times)

Lances_girl

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He's one step closer
« on: March 09, 2006, 08:12:07 PM »
So today I took Lance an hour away to a Reptile and Exotic pet store in Concord. They are the closest place from here that sells/helps tortiouses besides Petco. (This guy knew what he was talking about) Right away he could tell Lance was far from healthy. He asked if he had ever been under a UV light. I said no, just  heating pad. I found out that pretty much everything was wrong with the set up of his cage + his nutrition. I learned a lot- like about how the UVB light helps him make cells that turn his food into calcium. Which is very important, and becuase he wasn't getting any calcium the area around his eyes was swelling up. The man pretty much hooked me up with everything I need to turn his life around. A new, bigger cage with the UV lights and the night light all built in, along with a service plan. (every 3 months I can bring the cage and Lance in for a make over. They will clean out the cage, change the bedding, check the bulbs and electrical work, do a health check on Lance, clip his nails if necessary, and check for mites.) I aslo got a lot more nutrition information. The only thing he told me that didn't go along with what Joe's website says is that he said it was okay the occasionally feed him moistened dog/cat food. Which I probably wont do anyways.
Oh, and he clipped his nails AND beak! It was the saddest think I have ever seen! But he promised he wasn't in any pain. Tonight I gave Lance a bath, nice fresh food (with a sort of vitamine pouder he gave me to use), and all in his nice, new, WARM, happy cage. I think h is adjusting well. He told me Lance should be a lot healthier in a few months. And I was scared when he told me that if he were to have gone on living like he was that he would have probably died in about three years! I couldn't imagine.  :-X
-Dani

Becky

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2006, 05:30:58 AM »
Never ever feed dog or cat food!!!!!!! You should feed Weeds and more weeds!!!!!!!!!!
Also you clean your cage much more than once every three months and you shouldnt need to take it to a pet shop for that just take everything out wash cage, change change substrate and your done. This could be done whilst your tortoise is having a soak and so there is no stress to him. It would stress him to take him to a pet shop every three months. He shouldnt need his beak and nails cutting again now with excercise on a hard surface and feeding him on a piece of slate. Also you should only need a once a year trip to the vets for worming and checking.
 I really think hes after your money. I hope you dont think i`m harsh but you can learn for free alot more if you browse a few websites. I`m sure people will only be too happy to recommend some good sites. The way i did it was to just type `russian or horsfield tortoise` in and lots of information websites came up. Thats how i learnt. Good luck.
Could you post some pictures of your set up.

Clare

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2006, 06:00:19 AM »
I'm glad you found someone who's willing to look at tortoises, and it definitely sounds like you're on a much better track, but I have to agree with Becky. Apart from visits to the vet for occasional checks for parasites and serious health problems, you will probably be able to get all the help and information you need from this website and forum and the forum at the Yahoo group. Just two other things I'd like to add - night lights aren't necessary, since it's good to have a natural drop in temperature at night, and I've also been told that most vitamin powders aren't good either. I used a calcium powder for several years, but was then advised that I was better off just feeding a good diet, since you can overdose on the calcium.

Good luck, and post some pics! :) It sounds like Lance is going to be much happier.

Tortellini

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2006, 08:09:05 AM »
Hi Dani!  It was great to read your post.  I am so happy to hear that you took Lance to someone who was caring and knowledgable.  It seems you are on the right track and I commend you for being caring enough to institute all the good changes for your Lance.   One of my vets has said that when a tort is sick it takes a while for them to come back to good health.  What I have noticed with my RT, Louise, is that if there is a dietary imbalance, I correct it -- I notice a difference in her immediately.
Good work Dani!!  Keep us posted on Lance's rehabilitation.  Pics would be great.

By the way, when they clipped his beak, did they sedate him?
"We call him Tortoise because he taught us."   Lewis Carroll

Joe H

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2006, 10:49:16 AM »
I learned a lot- like about how the UVB light helps him make cells that turn his food into calcium.

Hi Dani
UVB  doesn't work that way. UVB convert the oils in the skin to vitamin D3. This vitamin is improtant for calcium absorption from food


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Which is very important, and becuase he wasn't getting any calcium the area around his eyes was swelling up.

calcium has little to do with this. Most likely the swelling is from improper conditions


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The man pretty much hooked me up with everything I need to turn his life around. A new, bigger cage with the UV lights and the night light all built in, along with a service plan. (every 3 months I can bring the cage and Lance in for a make over.

You don't need night lighting and thos all in one fixtures are a waste of money. Is this an aquarium set up

[quote}They will clean out the cage, change the bedding, check the bulbs and electrical work, do a health check on Lance, clip his nails if necessary, and check for mites.) [/quote]

it i9s extremely rare for a Russian tort to get miyes or need its nails clipped

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I aslo got a lot more nutrition information. The only thing he told me that didn't go along with what Joe's website says is that he said it was okay the occasionally feed him moistened dog/cat food. Which I probably wont do anyways.

please, for the health of the tort follow the diet and care information here

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Oh, and he clipped his nails AND beak! It was the saddest think I have ever seen! But he promised he wasn't in any pain. Tonight I gave Lance a bath, nice fresh food (with a sort of vitamine pouder he gave me to use), and all in his nice, new, WARM, happy cage. I think h is adjusting well. He told me Lance should be a lot healthier in a few months. And I was scared when he told me that if he were to have gone on living like he was that he would have probably died in about three years! I couldn't imagine.  :-X


Dani
It sounds like he sold you goods and services that you don't need.


« Last Edit: March 10, 2006, 11:35:18 AM by Joe H »

Joe H

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2006, 10:52:13 AM »
I`m sure people will only be too happy to recommend some good sites.


http://russiantortoise.org

maguire5700

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2006, 11:10:49 AM »
It sounds to me like the pet store guy is taking advantage of your wanting to give your tortoise the best of care. As Joe mentioned, rarely do tortoises need their nails clipped (see what they normally look like here:http://russiantortoise.org/toenails.htm
If he has swelling around his eyes, that's most likely an environmental issue, not calcium.
I hope he did not sell you an aquarium set up or rabbit pellets for substrate. Tortoises need an open airy environment where you can give them a temperature range so they can regulate their body temperature. This is nearly impossible in an aquarium. The substrate should be either a 50/50 mix of topsoil and playsand or coconut fiber (bed a beast or Eco earth, etc) and sand. Never use any kind of shavings, way too dry, like pellets.
The best kind of lamp is a uvb/heat lamp combo, all in one bulb. One fixture and you hook it into a timer and your all set. If he sold you something else he is not looking out for your torts best interest.
I agree with the poster that said bringing your tort and cage to this guy every three months is going to be too stressful for him, and totally unnecessary. And dog food? Russian tortoise are high fiber low protein diet tortoises. He should really learn about them before he give out the advice he's giving. He's the one that is going to cause your tort harm.
Stick to the info on the RT site, your tort will live a good, healthy life if you do.

Julie Maguire
Director, Turtle Rescue of Long Island

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maturtlerescue

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2006, 11:57:24 AM »
Most places and if fact hardly any manufacturers make tortoise cages.  When one thinks of what possibly could be a tortoise cage and links it to a pet store, the immediate thought is an aquarium. Not only is an aquarium expensive, essentially its a very poor "cage" for a tortoise.  For an idea of what a tortoise needs for an environment/habitat, please visit:

http://russiantortoise.org/indoor_pens.htm
http://russiantortoise.org/tortoise_table.htm
http://tinyurl.com/qbmlo

As Joe said, calcium is not synthesized into Vitamin D3 through the creation of cells.  When calcium is ingested either, but dietary intake or supplement (supplements are another topic and I won't go into it here), the coversion comes from oils in the skin, through high quality UVB light, such as comes from the sun (which is best) or a high quality UVB bulb such as a T-Rex.  I'd be interested in what you are using for lighting right now and if its filtered at the present time through glass, plastic, or a screen.  It doesn't matter the quality of the bulb if its filtered as in this case the light would have absolutely no benefit at all to the tortoise.  It has to be direct from the light to the tortoise.

I hope if the individual you spoke to observed any health problems (you mention he stated the tortoise looked un-well), he recommended a vet visit and what the potential problems could be.  When one aquires an adult Russian tortoise, predominately its wild caught and has gone through about 6 months or so of very poor care, including no food or water.  This in turn leads to a mssive poliferation of parasites that do need to be treated.  The usual are worms and protozoa, but the list can be extensive.  Do you have a vet that is skilled in diagnostics and treatment of turtles and tortoises? 

Eye problems are not caused by calcium deficiency.  They can be cause by dry/dusty environmental condions, infection, and othe irratation.  Can you upload pictures showing your tortoises eyes?  I ask because some feel eyes are swollen when they are not.

It is not necessary for you to bring your tortoise in to see someone for evaluation, substrate change or other maintenace.  Its entirely too stressful on the tortoise and the only time it should be taken out is to see a vet.  There is no value to this practice in the least. As keepers, we maintain proper habitat. This is not a dog that requires grooming etc. As for a health check only a vet can do this and is the only one qualified to diagnose or treat any potential problems.  If its recommended by a pet store to treat with over-the-counter medications this is faulty advise as well and dangerous. 

Beak and nail trims are not usually needed either as the tortoise should wear out its nails if it has areas in the enclosure that are rough.  As for the beak, it naturally wears while the tortoise eats.

Russian tortoises are herbevores and as such do not eat any meat, insects, etc., nor is its digestive system equipped for such.  This can lead to organ failure, ill health in general, and growth deformities and will kill your tortoise.  The only thing dog and cat food should be used for is for the animal it was designed for and even that is questionable.  We aim for a natural diet and this includes outside grazing in good weather.  Please refer back to: http://russiantortoise.org/russiantortoisediet.htm  The owner of this website keeps a large group of Russian tortoises, is a doctor and an expert in nutrition.  If you follow his dietary advise you will be assuring a healthy tortoise.  If you follow the dog food advise this will ensure health problems done the road and early death, not a healthy tortoise in a few months, but one that is much sicker.

 

Tortellini

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2006, 03:41:54 PM »
HI Again Dani,

I read your post this afternoon while at my office and I sent a reply post.  I must apologize for an oversight however.  I somehow missed (first reading) that the pet shop owner suggested dog and cat food.

Dani, please ---- whatever you do DO NOT EVER feed your RT dog/cat food; monkey chow; crickets or any live animal protein.  These torts are strictly herbivores.  We recently had a very sad experience. We purchased a small RT from a local reptile shop.  We figured her to be about 3 years old. based on her size although her affect was much older.

We brought her home and noticed she was not eating.  We took her to the vet and they treated her for parasites.  We began force feeding her after five days because it was obvious it was not an issue of "settling in" etc.  We continued to do this for about four weeks.  About the third week, I noticed that she suddenly became very alert when she saw a little fly in her pen. Up until that time she was listless and depressed.
It struck me that she might have been fed the wrong diet so I called the pet store owner and he admitted that she had been fed a constant diet of monkey chow; live crickets with and "occassional" green veggie.

Long story short, Afra died on January 21, 2006.  I am convinced she had a heart attach secondary to renal failure.  This was a set up for failure and it has affected my husband and I deeply.

I still think you are on the right path and I am delighted that you are moving forward to give Lance a happy and healthy home and life.  We all make mistakes, and there will be pet shop owners who will try to sell you products you do not need.  Over time, and with experience you will learn and be able to make decisions as to what you need for Lance.  Until then, know you are doing a good job and keep researching everything you can.

Joe is very knowledgable and supportive and there are lots of folks who write some great suggestions.  Read everthing, ask questions and time and experience will be your best lesson.

Good luck and give Lance a pet on his head for us.
"We call him Tortoise because he taught us."   Lewis Carroll

Tortellini

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2006, 08:50:18 PM »
Hi Dani,

Lance looks just like our Louise.  She is about 13 years old.  To tell you the truth, I expected Lance to look a lot worse than he does in these pics.

Tell Lance that Louise saw is photo and she is very interested....(smile)

"We call him Tortoise because he taught us."   Lewis Carroll

Joe H

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2006, 07:10:38 AM »
And no, I didn't even give the dog/cat food another thought. I read that information on this website the first night of my research and when he said that it shocked me. I would never think of feeding a reptile DOG food. Theats why the word DOG is in front of the food part. (I was once dared to eat dog food and I didn't like the taste of it very much anyways)

that would be a major clue that they don't know much about tortoises

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And the vitamine stuff I though I would give it a try. Maybe after ya'll see the pics you can help decide if I should give it to him on a temporarly basis.

with vitamins its very easy to overdose. That why I developed the powders that I sell at Carolina Pet supply. They are vitamins in a natural form.

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Oh, and about the "cage"- I would say it is an aquarium. It is 15x32.
[/qoute]
I looked at the pictures.  The tort looks fine. The eyes look like that because he is too dry.

The "cage"...well they sold you a stup thats designed for a snake. What is that substrate? looks like the wood chip pellets.  The lighting system is near useless.  Th cage itself is  lacking in air circulation.  I don't see how you can have a cool area in there. You are going to roast the tortWhy not build him this
http://russiantortoise.org/tortoise_table.htm

or make one out of a book case

If I were you I'd take all that beck and  avoid that store

 
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And I want to build him an out door area too, in the next month. The guy I talked to told me not to use any kind of cover or supply an area for him to hide from the light. So yesterday when I brought him home I took away the half carved out log tunnel that he has. But by the end of the night he looked like he was getting sick of the heat so I gave it back to him, just so he can have a break. Good idea or not?

What he told you is downright cruel.  A good idea is get the tort out of there!!


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And about the night light. I don't much enjoy it either. Lance is in my room. And that light makes my whole room shine red! I don't like it much. I will call the Pet store tommorow to find out the exact details of the lights he supplied me with for all of you to know. I definently don't want to go off just one person's advice, I did that ten years ago and see where it got me?

The difference is you went by the advice of someone that wasn't very knowledgeable about Russians. And now you are listening to the pet shop guy. If you follow the advice on the RT website, you won't go wrong. I've been breeding them for 15 years (40+ years for turtles). I have a colony of 40 torts. I also breed redfoot torts and 5 species of box turtles. Not to brag, but I know my "stuff"


Here are some pics. Hopefully I did this right :)


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In the first picture I am showing you the back of his shell. Do you see how it has grown out lighter than the rest of his shell? Is that normal?
Thats normal new growth


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In the second picture is the best pic I could get of his face (he was hating me for making him try to sit still) So there's the best I could get of his eyes.
its from being too dry


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In the third pic is just Lance. All around him is the bedding that the pet store supplied me with. Can you tell what it is? I'll trade it out with something else if I need to.

get playsand from Home Depot and Bed-A-Bast or EcoSoft (coconut coir) and use a 50/50 mix about 3'" deep


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And that last pic is his cage. Like I said its 15x32 and he supplies the lights for me. He said to keep it at around 86 degrees at all time. True?

False. Under the basking light it should be (at substrate level) 95°F and the cool end should be 70°F


maturtlerescue

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2006, 12:27:28 PM »
Hi Dani


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Wow- lots of responses- Lets see,
No, they did not sedate him when they cut his beak :( He pretty much just held him from the neck and promised me it didn't hurt and then just clipped it. He didnt hiss or anything like he does when he is unhappy so I assumed he really didnt feel it.

Sedation is almost never needed to trim a beak.  The risks of anesthesia at far too high, to implement for such a minor issue, such as a beak trim, and should only be reversed for surgical needs. There is no pain associated with beak trimming and its very similar of cutting finger nails for humans, however, too much can be taken off and a bleed could occur.


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Joe- the way you worded the whole UVB stuff was how he told me. I just wasn't as good at remembering the fine details.
And no, I didn't even give the dog/cat food another thought. I read that information on this website the first night of my research and when he said that it shocked me. I would never think of feeding a reptile DOG food. Theats why the word DOG is in front of the food part. (I was once dared to eat dog food and I didn't like the taste of it very much anyways)

As for the dog/cat food, seems consideration was applied to the potential of feeding this sort of food to a herbevore tortoise. This suggestion alone would be suspect to anyone's credentials or knowledge of this species as a whole and given that your tortoise is likely grossly nutrient deficient would likely put it over the edge if feed such.

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Pics are on the way. working on them this second.
And the vitamine stuff I though I would give it a try. Maybe after ya'll see the pics you can help decide if I should give it to him on a temporarly basis.

Why spend hard earn cash of vitamins sold in the pet store where quality may be lacking?  Best to implement supplementation with a natural product, such as can be found at: http://carolinapetsupply.com/  Many who have used pet store supplements are often quite disappointed by the results and eventually do overdose their tortoises. The way your tortoise is presently, with having a hugely inadequate diet for 10 years, doesn't give one any play room here and something that is not appropriate could essentially put the tortoise of the edge and lead to its demise.

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I sincerly an thankful for all the posts. keep them coming, I am learning so much.
Oh, and about the "cage"- I would say it is an aquarium. It is 15x32. And I want to build him an out door area too, in the next month. The guy I talked to told me not to use any kind of cover or supply an area for him to hide from the light. So yesterday when I brought him home I took away the half carved out log tunnel that he has. But by the end of the night he looked like he was getting sick of the heat so I gave it back to him, just so he can have a break. Good idea or not?

Is that 'cage' completely covered and not allowing any air circulation?  My guess is it was quite expensive to purchase, yet still isn't a good environment for your tortoise.  Preference is opened tops as describe on this website as well as photos depicting tortoise tables, etc.   Tortoise do need areas of hide.  In the wild, they will enter burrows to cool off and rest.  To be blunt, you were ripped off here with the 'cage,' received poor overall advise, etc.  Yes, give your tortoise a break and escape of the high temperatures or he will be too hot too eat and will also dehydrate.   

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And about the night light. I don't much enjoy it either. Lance is in my room. And that light makes my whole room shine red! I don't like it much. I will call the Pet store tommorow to find out the exact details of the lights he supplied me with for all of you to know. I definently don't want to go off just one person's advice, I did that ten years ago and see where it got me?

Tortoises don't need heat at night and its natural and beneficial to have cooler night time temperatures.  No need to find out the details of the "red light" as its essentially useless and likely you will get some sort of a spew on why you needed it anyway.

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In the first picture I am showing you the back of his shell. Do you see how it has grown out lighter than the rest of his shell? Is that normal?

Its normal growth.

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In the second picture is the best pic I could get of his face (he was hating me for making him try to sit still) So there's the best I could get of his eyes.

The eyes aren't swollen or at least not to where it suggests any treatment is needed other then upping humidity.  Eye problems are mainly cause by hot/dry/dusty conditions.

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In the third pic is just Lance. All around him is the bedding that the pet store supplied me with. Can you tell what it is? I'll trade it out with something else if I need to.

Again, more poor advise.  I don't know what that substrate is, but its not appropriate and far too dry.  Best to use a mixture of something that holds moisture, such as soil and sand combo.  Tortoises aren't neat animals and like dirt, mud etc., and don't do well in a sterile environment. 

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And that last pic is his cage. Like I said its 15x32 and he supplies the lights for me. He said to keep it at around 86 degrees at all time. True?

Universally hot temperatures throughout are another falsity.  Tortoises need to regulate their body temperatures and need both the ability to warm or cool themselves.  86 F throughout is far too hot and will not enabling your tortoise to want to feed, will lead to dehydration, etc. 

Dani, I don't want to be rude or blunt, and know you are trying so very hard to give your tortoise a healthy environment and make major improvements to overall care.  However, if you follow the advise you are receiving from the pet store and keep purchasing useless and dangerous equipment, you will ultiamtely lose your tortoise. I understand you are seeking the opinions of many in order to make an educated decision of the care you provide, but the choice is yours on which you follow.  This site and the owner of such is the information you need to get where you want to be.   

Lances_girl

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2006, 02:33:48 PM »
Thanks again.
There are small ventalation holes at both ends of the cage. And I'll get that recipt from my mom and find out what the return policies are.
I have noticed that he isn't eating as much. I have been giving him a lot more of a variety. Question: is it ok to feed him Pansies? I read that list of edible plants of the website but didnt see it.
Now, honestly I don't know what to do. I am definently leaning towards the advice learned here, and I definently don't want to put Lance in something that he won't be any happier/healthier in. And I spent over $200 on the whole thing. And the more I think about it-- the animals in his store didn't look too happy either. Just sitting there all looking pretty hot. What do you think is the minimum size of an indoor home should be for a tortoise his size? I'd still like to make an out door set up too, that way he can have the natural sunlight too. What do you think about having two homes for him? would he get stressed out not having just one main location. The outdoor home would be mostly for the summer/spring and the indoor of course for the winter.
And if I go ahead and put my own indoor home together for him.. what kind of bulb(s) should I use? Maybe I'll just have to order one from Joe's shop.
I am just a little discouraged now, but I'm not going to stop trying.
-Dani

maguire5700

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Re: He's one step closer
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2006, 03:35:57 PM »
Hi Dani, if you can return that tank you should. He never should have sold that to you for a tortoise and if he knew anything at all about tortoises he would know they should not be housed in an aquarium. A large 50+ gallon rubbermaid type tote make a much better home than that. A bookcase laid on it's back with the shelves removed makes a great tortoise table. If you know someone handy with a saw and a drill they can make a nice tort table. Take a look at some of the great set ups here: http://www.russiantortoisepictures.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=965
There are so many nice habitats that can be made for both inside and out. For outside just  make sure it's safe from predators with a secure lid and that the sides go into the ground a good foot or more so the tort cannot dig out.
The best info you can find is at www.russiantortoise.org not from a pet shop that is trying to sell you products that you don't need and offering care yourt tort doesn't need.
Pansies, also known as viola are edible, just make sure they are not treated with fertilizer or pesticides. See the edible plant list here: http://russiantortoise.org/edible_plants.htm

Julie Maguire
Director, Turtle Rescue of Long Island

Be sure to check the great prizes for our 2006 Raffle:
http://turtlerescues.com/2006_fundraiser_raffle.htm
http://www.turtlerescues.com/
NYS Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator

View our photos at:
http://turtlerescues.com/gallery2/main.php
http://www.picturetrail.com/maguire5700

Join our group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TurtleRescueLongIsland/join


         *  *  *   *       / . )
    *                 *    /   /
\ * * -------------- /   /
   """                   """
Behold the turtle: He makes progress only when he sticks his neck out. A quote by: James B. Conant




Julie Maguire
Director, Turtle Rescue of Long Island
www.turtlerescues.org
NYS Licensed Wildlife Rehabilitator

View our photos at:
http://www.turtlerescues.com/gallery2/mai