My poor Torts!

[ashross77]

Well guys I took my new Rt's to the vet for a well pet check up today and I just got them last Wednesday from petsmart and my little girl Jazzy is severely protien deficient and her skin is all edematous also very underweight and my little man Rocky is slightly deficient in protien and also very underweight! My vet suggests 3/4 diet of good green leafy lettuce in a variety and 1/4 protien packed veggies for the next 3 weeks and closely monitor their weight and offer food 2-3 times per day as much as they eat before leaving it and replace when wilted. He said that in our area all the distributors to petco, petsmart, and smaller pet stores have gotten poorly taken care of torts and then took care of them poorly but he believes with tlc we can turn these 2 around and make them healthy again! He said we got them just in time!
Thanks for all your help everyone this site is awesome!
Ashley!

[Irwin4530]

They are lucky to have you!
Good job 

[turtlefanatic]

Ashley, bless you for rescuing Jazzy and Rocky and putting them back on the road to health!  I know some people say that we shouldn't buy tortoises from pet stores because it encourages them to bring in more, but it's so hard to look in their little eyes and then turn and walk away.  They go through such a rough time, being snatched from their native land and shipped across the ocean only to arrive in pet stores where the employees know little or nothing about their care. 

My boy Nikolai was a Petco tortoise.  My heart breaks when I think about the torts who don't survive the trip to America, and the ones who never get good homes.  Jazzy and Rocky are lucky to have been adopted by someone who will love them and take good care of them.  In all likelihood you saved their lives.  May you share many happy years with your new shelled friends!        

[Didi]

I have never heard that a tortoise needs protein.   What type of veggies is your vet recommending?  Russian tortoises should only eat leafy greens.  Some vets don't really know what they are doing if they haven't worked with Russian Tortoises before. 

[welovevader]

Props for your efforts! One thing about the vet's recommendations on the diet, though; only feed them items from the "Greens" and "Other Good Choices" on the RT Diet Page. It's a common misconception (even among vets) that they can have just any veggies. Too much protein can be a bad thing for RTs and can cause some health issues after a while. The key too a good RT diet is variety. Rotate among the items from the diet page. Somethings will be scoffed at (very amusing to watch actually ), while other things will be devoured like crazy.

I think in addition to the good diet, the best thing you can get for your torts is TNT. TNT or Tortoise Nutritional Supplement, was specially formulated by the afformentioned Joe Heinen. It's packed full of a bunch beneficial ingredients, even optional probiotics. It also has acts as a calcium supplement, which is very important for torts. You just sprinkle a little bit on their food a couple times a week. That first link is just to the information page for it. Here's the product page. I noticed an imrovement with both of my torts after I started them on it; especially my girl Penny who, like your's, was a product of extremely poor care from Petsmart.

[ashross77]

Well he is the only reptile vet in my area. He is also the vet for our only Zoo here. They do keep tortoises at that zoo. He did mention that he cares for several different types of torts. He mentioned that a lot of his clients have brought their russians in to him this year in very poor health from these big pet stores and he even got in touch with those stores to have them return their stock to the breeders because they were all unhealthy to begin with.

As for the protien he said to give them 1/4 protein veggies for the next 3 weeks and then we will re assess. He did mention that too much is very bad for them but also in the same regard not enough can kill them.
What he explained to me with my Jazzy was when she retracts into her shell and her skin is all puffy around her it is edematous (fluid filled) that happens when the torts are protein deficient. He also said he had one tort come in from a petco this year that had so much edema that he had to drain some off and since they did that he tested the fluid and found it to have only about a 5th of the amount of protein it should have in its body. He said my Jazzy was well on her way to being the same exact way. He said this was due to a very poor diet most likely her whole life. He suggested giving them Carrots, Green Peas (if i could get them to eat them he said most dont like them), and Sweet Potatoes par boiled to bring out some of the nurtrients and diced or chopped. Again he reiterated that the higher proteins should only be 1/4 of their diet and the other 3/4 should be a mixed salad of a variety and he listed pretty much all the ones on the diet page. He also strongly encouraged us to forage for the appropriate weeds when the season allows.

[ashross77]

And as for my Rocky he said his biggest problem is that hes a "skinny little thing" and he also has a slight protein deficiency and he said for the next 3 weeks it wont hurt him at all to have the extra protein since he is so malnurished. Rocky is underweight by 299 grams and little Jazzy is underweight by 206 grams which probably he said is actually a low number because of the fluid she has taken on with her protein deficiency.

It was quite comical watching him examine them little Jazzy wouldnt come out of hiding for him but he managed to roust her. Whereas Rocky thought it was a play day and poor Doc Williams was a place to pee and poop 

He did mention he has extensive experience with torts and many other reptiles. I would recommend him to people again. I hadnt realized it was the same vet I had been to years ago but my mother bred pythons and boas for many years and we had to take a few in to him and he was very good with them too. I know they are very different but I think he is reputable. 

[welovevader]

Carrots, green peas, and sweet potatoes aren't good for them at all. They're very high in carbohydrates, which in turn become sugar in the body. Sugar causes blooms in parasites, which needless to say, is very bad. I'm sorry to say, but that vet doesn't sound very well versed in proper RT care if he's recommending those daily, even for just three weeks. It'll result in a large parasite bloom. I applaud his efforts with the chains, but sadly that's probably not going to be super successful in the long run (that's a whole other issue).

Your torts will get better by eating the proper diet, but not those items.  

Did he do a fecal check? If so, what were the results? I'm also curious as to the formula he used to determine their proper weight, because there is one. Did he measure them? (length x width x height)

[ashross77]

He didnt do a fecal check but he did examine thier poop. As for the formula he used the same one listed on this site and his results were very close to the ones i got this morning.
Well my question is what do you suggest I do to bring up the protein levels that are so deficient? My selection for greens at HyVee which has the best selection was Romaine, Red and Green Lettuce, Kale, Collard Greens, and I think that was about it I bought what they had that was on the list.
All I bought for the "high protein veggies" he suggested was the shredded carrots.

[welovevader]

Well, looking back at your pics of them, I don't see any kind of unusual puffiness, so I'm not really sure what he's referring to when he says the skin is puffy. Another picture, one of them "tucked in" would be a big help. Either way, stick to what's listed and they'll do great. 

Just because he treats reptiles, doesn't mean he's a "reptile vet", ie a specialist. The fact that he didn't do a fecal is troubling.  Eyeballing the poop isn't enough, it needs to be examined under a microscope. Coming from Petsmart, it's pretty much guranteed they have parasite blooms.

Please, keep in mind I'm not trying to trash your vet or anything. It just doesn't sound like he knows the proper care for RTs. It's just that unless they're reptile specialists, and even then, many vets don't know the proper care, it's not that they're bad vets, they're just not familiar enough with the particulars. 

[ashross77]

I understand and trust me right now I truly believe you all are the "experts" I just want to do what is right and what is best for my RT's when we go back in 3 weeks I will request the fecal check I will take pictures of Jazzy tomorrow shes so antisocal right now that getting one of just her skin and not much else is pretty easy. And i truly dont trust many doctors people or animal. I am a nurse and I know quite a lot of doctors are full of it!  Thanks for your advice!

[welovevader]

You sound like a great tort mom!

I was just trying to tread lightly; some people can get really defensive, especially online where there isn't any voice tone.

Not sure if I commented on your pics in the other thread, but they are cuties!

[ashross77]

Thank you! I'm certainly trying! My husband is likely to want to kill me before all this is done! I am kinda a worry wart and now I'm worried about the parasite issue so if I understood right some things to watch for are sluggishness, lack of appetite, and runny stools? Anything else and are those right? So far both are pretty active and have voracious appetites and the stools are changing not really runny but soft formed. Jeeze you guys are gonna want to kick me out I barely get one question answered and ten more surface! < sigh>

[welovevader]

I am kinda a worry wart and now I'm worried about the parasite issue so if I understood right some things to watch for are sluggishness, lack of appetite, and runny stools? Anything else and are those right? So far both are pretty active and have voracious appetites and the stools are changing not really runny but soft formed.

Yeah, that's about it. Worrying means you're doing it right.

...Jeeze you guys are gonna want to kick me out I barely get one question answered and ten more surface! < sigh>

Lol. Questions are good! We love questions! As Homer Simpson would say "Mmmm...doughnuts questions,". 

[Joe H]

He said this was due to a very poor diet most likely her whole life. He suggested giving them Carrots, Green Peas (if i could get them to eat them he said most dont like them), and Sweet Potatoes par boiled to bring out some of the nurtrients and diced or chopped. Again he reiterated that the higher proteins should only be 1/4 of their diet and the other 3/4 should be a mixed salad of a variety and he listed pretty much all the ones on the diet page.

I have to disagree with the vet on this. First I really doubt the tort had a poor diet for most of its life. This may be the case for other species of pet store torts (like sulcata), but your RT is wild caught and in the wild they have a great diet. The problem starts when they are imported...the conditions are horrible and most don't survive.

And the protein part, well carrots peas and sweet potatoes may be fine for other species such as redfoots, but will just cause more problems for yours. Besides carrots and sweet potatoes have very little protein...they are mostly starch. Peas are higher in protein but is also high in starch.

Feed the diet on the RT site and you won't go wrong. I have been breeding these torts for 20+ years and have spent countless hours researching their needs.

He also strongly encouraged us to forage for the appropriate weeds when the season allows.

Now that I agree with. And when the seasons don't permit, grow seeds indoors.
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